Moved topic: Fore sail size

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Moved topic: Fore sail size

Postby tomblix » Sun Apr 20, 2014 7:17 pm

Hi all

I have a Q for anyone who has any knowledge on the matter, that I`d like to post.
I have a genoa (original 31 sq m, maybe around 140%?) that I`ve never used. When we bought Lina she was rigged with a jibb just less than 100%. This has worked well for us, in my opinion. But I am curious whether the genoa will improve sailing performance, or if the jibb is more or less as good. So, I was thinking I`d start of the season with the genoa, but know I`ve been asked to sell it. And I`m not sure what to do. Is the genoa worth keeping - or should I just settle with the jibb? Suggestions appreciated! Thanks.
Best regards from Tom

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Re: Foresailsize

Postby Martijn » Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:13 am

Hi Tom, to be able to answer you question can you indicate if you have a furling system on the forestay?

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Re: Foresailsize

Postby tomblix » Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:55 pm

Thanks in advance, Martijn!
We have a furling system. If I should try to guess why you need to know to be able to say, I`d say that a good reason to keep it will be to just furl up if the wind tells me that I have to much power in the sail…. Am I down the right alley? If this is it - does a furled up 140% genoa to 100% have the same characteristics as a 100% jibb? And is the strength of a furled up genoa equal to a fully extended jibb?
(By the way, earlier today I was advised to keep it. Price is quite low for used sails, and it can be used as a spare…)

Just a few more days now - and we`ll be afloat :D
Best regards from Tom

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Re: Moved topic: Fore sail size

Postby Antti_DD » Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:04 pm

Tom,

DD came with 135 % furling genoa, which I have been using all the time. She also has a jib, but I have never used that since the genoa is better for the lighter wind conditions in the Baltic. I am not sure about the size of our cruising genoa, but I think that it might be around 27-28 m2. I guess that a furling genoa is a bit smaller than the original HR29's genoa 1 which was 31 m2.

A properly made furling genoa should be made of strong fabric since it should be able to as work as an all-around sail and even as a storm jib. Naturally, the performance and the shape of the sail is compromised when it is reefed. Thus, in terms of sailing having both the genoa and the jib is a better option. However, in terms of comfort and ease of use having just one fore sail is much more easier so therefore furling sails are so common nowadays. I guess that it comes to the prevailing wind conditions in your area which determines whether it is wise to have the jib or the genoa as a primary furling sail.
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HR 29 # 483 "Dolphin Dance"
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Re: Moved topic: Fore sail size

Postby Martijn » Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:59 am

Hi (sherlock) Tom ;) I was indeed focussing on furling a genoa because it makes a jib superfluous. Yes furling a genoa to 100% changes the profile and tends to affect the performance but as Antti commented a well made and balanced out Genoa covers for most positions and keeps properties quite well.

I think Sailing with a genoa is great for HR29. A 140% genoa pulled aside seems to sail more balanced then a 100% or jib, its more stable. It could be my imagination but I notice less pitching and rolling. Also interesting fact is that the fore sail is by 70% responsible for propultion and 30% for heel. With the mainsail this is presicely the other way around and makes the main sail less important in my eyes. HR 29 can take very much wind and I find myself furling back the genoa to 100% plus 1 reef in the mainsail at 5/6 bft, still sailing 6,5 knots close reach. For me this is fine, our ships will never become a racer anyway. But at stronger winds its fun to see 'round bilge hulls' struggle while we cut our way through the waves like a knife.

I have quite a new furling genoa and really like its versatillity. At this moment I'm sailing to Texel one ofHollands largest islands and have had all kinds of winds ranging from 0 to 6 bft. In these swift changing circumstances its very convenient to have a sail that can be adjusted with a single pull.
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Re: Moved topic: Fore sail size

Postby Antti_DD » Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:23 pm

Very good points Martijn! I guess that HR29 has rather modest sail area to displacement, so large genoa is giving more power especially for those lighter conditions. I don't have experience on sailing with jib, but I definitely agree what you say on the excellent sail balance with the genoa. What I found interesting, compared to other boats that I have sailed, is that HR29 sails very well just under a genoa (i.e. without mainsail). She also points surprisingly high when sailing to windward with fore sail only. The tiller balance is then very neutral compared to slight weather helm with the main sail + genoa. Sometimes when I am feeling lazy and there is enough wind, I just unfurl the genoa and leave the main sail on the boom. So I definitely agree with you that in HR29 the fore sail is very important for the sailing performance, and thus having a large genoa is a good thing to have. The only drawback is that tacking the large fore sail is a bit slow and uncomfortable.

p.s. nice photos and the weather doesn't seem to be too bad either! For me the start of season is not too far away, maybe next week if everything goes well...
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Re: Moved topic: Fore sail size

Postby tomblix » Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:52 pm

Hi
Thanks for answer and tips. I`ve just come in from a 24 hrs full summer trip, and I have to say that I agree with regard to the genoa. Worked extremely well, and passing 10 m/s i set reef 1 and furled up a bit, and had a comfortable sail around 5,5-6 kts.
The AP still works well, even if I`m a bit confused. I have four compasses onboard. All show different, varying about 30 degrees. Wonder how that may be possible? Any ideas out there?
Best regards from Tom

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Re: Moved topic: Fore sail size

Postby Antti_DD » Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:01 pm

Tom, nice to hear that you have already had a chance to start the season and the genoa is working well. I think that you will be happy about the performance of your new fore sail.

To help you with the compass issue, it would be important to know where those compasses are located? I guess that your autopilot's compass is among one of them? From the chart plotter/GPS you get the true heading so that is a good reference for estimating magnetic declination among different compasses. For example a speaker located close to the magnetic compass can have a huge impact. I found out this today when I had a portable speaker in the cockpit for listening radio, while I was doing some maintenance work at the boat. That speaker caused a declination of about 30 degrees or more in the main compass.
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Re: Moved topic: Fore sail size

Postby tomblix » Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:48 am

Hi Anti

The compasses are actually located a bit here and there. The new AP-compass is placed in the fore cabin, above the door. One meter away from the batteries, according to instructions. One is the original - placed in the cockpit, one is on the Geonav chart plotter - placed on the swing arm in the doorway, One is the iPad on the swing arm, and finally the last one is on my iPhone - placed in my hand by the tiller….
I`m familiar with the danger of deviation close to speakers, so none of the compasses are closer than 1,5 meters or so (cockpit-speakers..)
Mr. Google told me that the deviation will vary with course on board boats, so maybe I should just live with it. As long as I`m aware of it, I think I`ll find my way, but being a bit "nerdy" it buggers me...
Best regards from Tom

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Re: Moved topic: Fore sail size

Postby Antti_DD » Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:30 pm

Tom, thanks for the info. I am not an expert on different compasses, but here is how I see the differences between various devices. The 'compass' in the chart plotter and also in the iPad (used with Navionics app for example) is a GPS based compass which works by calculating the bearing between two last positions. Therefore it is giving the true course, which is free of magnetic declination and deviation. The drawback is that it is only working when the boat is moving. When used at the sea the GPS compass may be a bit slow to react compared to the magnetic compass and it often seems to be lacking behind the boat. I think that this also depends on how the device is programmed and how the motion of the boat is buffered, since our Garmin chart plotters bearing is fairly consistent with the main steering compass whereas the course and the bearing displayed by the iPad tends to wander more.

All in all, it is difficult to compare the readings of a GPS compass and a magnetic compass unless the conditions are calm and one is motoring at a constant speed and course. I think that your magnetic steering compass in the cockpit should be accurate and I would be a bit concerned if there is a significant difference to the autopilot's compass or to the GPS compass of the chart plotter.

Btw. have you calibrated the autopilot yet?

Based on some internet discussions, the iPhone's digital compass app is criticized for inaccuracy so I guess that it is not reliable enough for marine use.
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