Sailing with Gennaker

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Sailing with Gennaker

Postby Antti_DD » Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:25 am

When freeing space on my phone memory, I found some sailing footage which was filmed last summer during one of our first sailing trips of the season. I decided to make a short Youtube clip from that material.

Here is a link to the video: http://youtu.be/orr8q1u-kvY

The video shows (quickly) our gennaker arrangement, where we use the bow anchor as a gennaker bowsprit. We have a furler for the gennaker so it requires quite stable bowsprit. However, the anchor is not as stable as a fixed bowsprit would be, but at least it works well in light winds. In stronger winds, we usually take the gennaker down any ways. However, I would prefer having a fixed stainless steel gennaker bowsprit, similar to ones that newer HRs often have. I once asked a price for that kind of bowsprit from HR, but found their offer (1600 €) a bit too expensive for a stainless steel tube and fitting.

Here is a photo of our 'poor man's' gennaker bowsprit:
Gennaker bowsprit.jpg
'Gennaker bowsprit'
Gennaker bowsprit.jpg (63.54 KiB) Viewed 5509 times
Last edited by Antti_DD on Wed Dec 30, 2015 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Antti Laine, Forum Administrator
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Re: Video: Light wind sailing with Gennaker

Postby Chris » Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:47 pm

Antti, I am considering buying a furling Gennaker similar to yours and wondered if you could help me with a few questions.

I have looked at your video and it seems fairly straight forward but wondered if you ever use a spinnaker or whisker pole. I see you fix the tack or furling drum to the anchor. I have also seen the topic Tentation posted on his bowsprit and whilst this is a very clever and well executed piece of engineering I was hoping to get away with something a little more simple. I was thinking about a fixing point on the pulpit near to where it joins to the bow roller. What do you think stresses might be like at that point? I wouldn't have thought too much.

My deck organisers are full up and I assume if there is no pole, up and down hauls wouldn't be needed, just a sheet and a halyard?

Also I have been quoted some pretty crazy prices for the sail and furling drum.

What you have seems fairly straight forward and the sort of thing I am after. Do you have a brand name, model name or number for the furling system and an idea on cost?

Hope you can help. If anyone else has any opinions/ideas I would much appreciate their input.

Cheers

Chris

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Re: Video: Light wind sailing with Gennaker

Postby Antti_DD » Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:18 pm

Dolphin Dance came with the gennaker kit when I bought boat so unfortunately I don't have detailed information about the kit and how much it cost. Furthermore, the gennaker is probably about 15 years old and the p/o had never used the sail so he couldn't provide me much additional information either. However, according to the equipment list which I got with the boat, the brand name of the gennaker/furler is 'Norfurl' and the size of the sail is about 55 m2. The gennaker itself is made by North Sails, so I guess that Norfurl is the brand of the furling system.

Although I like the gennaker furler - when it works properly - I might consider also other options if buying the kit now. Problem with the furler is that it is impossible to furl the gennaker as tightly as genoa, so if there is a bit more wind, the furled sail easily catches some wind and the sail starts flapping. I have also managed to tangle the gennaker with the fore stay while hoisting the sail singlehandedly. It took about 1/2 hours to sort the mess...

Another thing with the furler is that, it needs a fairly stable platform to work properly. A bowsprit that Tentation has would be optimal solution, but I opted for a lazy man's choice and have been using the roll bar of the CQR anchor as a bowsprit. It works well in light winds, but in stronger winds the sail starts to shake the anchor a bit too much. It would need some extra support in those conditions, but on the other hand, it is often an easier and more relaxed option to drop the gennaker when the wind starts approaching 20 kts.

One option that I have considered as an alternative to furler is this ATN tacker or similar product: http://www.atninc.com/atn-tacker-sailin ... ment.shtml
This could be a handy kit especially for HR29 where the fore stay is attached right in the corner of the bow, and it is difficult to get the sail clear of the genoa furler and pulpit. Speaking of the pulpit, I guess that stress is not an issue if the sail is used in <20kts winds.

In my previous boat, I attached a block in the bow, which led the tackline back to the cockpit. This way the sail could be lowered from the cockpit which was very handy. Btw. I think that it could be also possible to lead the furling line back to the cockpit, as it is fairly long. However, I have kept and used it in the fore deck, as the line easily gets tangled (it is a continuous loop). But I might test leading the aft this season.

DD also came with a spinnaker equipment (no sail though) and the spinnaker pole was stored on the mast, but it has now been in the warehouse for three years. Gennaker is indeed very easy sail since pole and up and down hauls are not needed as you mentioned. Just attach sheet(s) and halyard and tackline/furler and up it goes...

Both of the boats that I've had, have been equipped with a gennaker so I might be a bit biased towards them. In other words, I don't want to make too strong comparisons to the spinnaker. However, I think that the pros of the gennaker are spelled in terms of simplicity and ease of use. It only takes a couple of minutes to get the gennaker flying (also singlehandedly), and thus it can be used also during shorter legs. Although spinnaker is a faster downwind sail, this speed differential might be less in reality – from a cruising sailor's perspective – if the gennaker actually gets hoisted more often.

Here are a couple of GoPro images of DD's gennaker in action:
Gennaker3_GoPro.jpg
Gennaker3_GoPro.jpg (60.53 KiB) Viewed 5425 times

Gennaker2_GoPro.jpg
Gennaker2_GoPro.jpg (54.56 KiB) Viewed 5425 times

Gennaker1_GoPro.jpg
Wing on wing...
Gennaker1_GoPro.jpg (56.67 KiB) Viewed 5425 times
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Re: Video: Light wind sailing with Gennaker

Postby Chris » Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:40 am

Antti, thank you for a very thorough and extremely helpful reply. I suppose I know there is no such thing as a simple solution. But best to consider such an installation carefully because with a sail with such a large area, everything really does need to work efficiently.

I often sail single handed and spinnakers and poles are too much of a handful and I can see the ATN Tacker along with a sock, does seem a relatively simple solution.
However I have had a cruising chute and snuffer on a previous boat and didn't find it at all agreeable to the point where I vowed never to own one again. But perhaps things have improved.

Still favouring a furling asymmetric I have spoken to my local rigger not realising he is a Selden dealer, and think if he can come up with a fair price that might be the best way to go. He did ask if I had a short bowsprit as it may be necessary but did add that one could try the sail first. But I suspect it is going to require one to work successfully.

Thanks again for all the info, I'll let you know how things progress.

https://youtube.googleapis.com/v/3Wl1ptIECY0?hl=

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Re: Video: Light wind sailing with Gennaker

Postby Antti_DD » Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:26 pm

Thanks for the video link, for some reason it always looks so easy in those video!

After seeing that video, I might re-consider my thoughts on the gennaker furler, because it looked so handy. Of course, that video was shot in pretty light conditions whereas the problems and weak points usually come up in a breeze. What was nice that they seemed to be able to furl the gennaker pretty tightly.

Now when thinking about it further, gennaker furlers have become pretty popular also in racing boats such as VOR70 etc. so most probably things have improved also in case of furlers.

I don't have personal experience on snuffer/socks, but I have always thought that they would be handy for a singlehander. But I can see that if the snuffer won't work smoothly, things can get a bit tricky.

I guess that one problem with our CQR 'gennaker bowsprit´ is that the furler is not far enough to be clear of the pulpit and anchor gear, so the furling drum couldn't operate as smoothly as it should be. Definitely a proper bowsprit would improve things greatly. I have always liked the bowsprit design on the newer HRs.

Chris, I guess that with your tools and skills, this kind of bowsprit wouldn't be too difficult to built? Still the tube needs to be welded to the forestay fitting, which probably needs to be dismounted from the boat, so it isn't a particularly easy task either?

HR310bowsprit234MRassy.jpg
photo: http://www.hallberg-rassy.com/yachts/aft-cockpit-boats/310/
HR310bowsprit234MRassy.jpg (90.63 KiB) Viewed 5399 times
Antti Laine, Forum Administrator
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Re: Video: Light wind sailing with Gennaker

Postby Chris » Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:16 am

I think the way the 310 bowsprit is arranged is a robust installation. Whether this method will adapt to the 29 may need some experimenting with as the toe rail on the 29 is not as wide or flat.

Here is yet another solution to the bowsprit issue. But this certainly looks a fairly elaborate stainless steel fabrication.
another bowsprit.jpg
another bowsprit.jpg (208.83 KiB) Viewed 5395 times


Tentation's removable bowsprit is a very clever answer but unfortunately my anchor arrangement compromises this design.

I think I will take a few bits of cardboard and cardboard tube to the boat and have a play around. Probably end up combining ideas from them all!

Thanks again for your input Antti.

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Moin moin

Postby Peti » Fri Dec 25, 2015 8:44 pm

image.jpeg
image.jpeg (49.31 KiB) Viewed 4781 times
Hi,
Merry Christmas to all of you.
We are sailing the HR 117 from 1983 named Sirkka. Our home port is in North Germany and we sail on the river Elbe, the North Sea and the Baltic Sea. Sirkka Is a wonderful boat. comfortable, safe and seaworthy.
I wish you many wonderfull trips next summer.
Rüdiger

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Re: Moin moin

Postby Antti_DD » Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:09 pm

Hi Rüdiger,
Welcome on the forum and thanks for the beautiful sailing photo of s/y Sirkka!

I was looking at your photo and wondering, how the tack corner of your asymmetric/gennaker is attached to the bow?
/Antti
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Re: Moin moin

Postby Peti » Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:17 pm

Hi,
This is not a problem, First I use a dyneema Loop wich i put on the short vertical tube of the bow railing Later i use the fitting wich Is on the Photo. It Is more Comfortable and strong enough.
Rüdiger
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Re: Moin moin

Postby Sirius » Wed Dec 30, 2015 10:10 pm

I am thinking of a gennaker. Would be interested in more pictures of your tack attachment. I don't want to go down the bowsprit route and am not sure about attaching it to the anchor. Ideally one needs to be able to alter the length of the tack depending on point of sail.

Sirius

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