Repowering

Maintenance and refit discussion
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Repowering

Postby Chris » Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:35 pm

Hi Elad and welcome to the forum. This is in response to your recent posting.

I am interested in knowing a little more about your recent re-powering project. Impulse has her original engine (VP2002) which I have to say seems to be ok. She smokes a little at start up (keep telling her she really ought to give up on the weed) but under way she runs well and reliably.

Last winter I reconditioned the entire cooling system, new exhaust elbow and riser, rebuilt heat exchanger, new rubber hoses, cleaned and repainted all copper pipes and replaced all the seals. At the same time, because the heat exchanger had been leaking and dripping on to the starter motor and solenoid I had to recondition these as well.

When I initially discovered the sorry state of the starter motor, heat exchanger, exhaust elbow and riser, I began looking at re-powering but I was dismayed by the fact that I was told the 120s saildrive doesn't fit the new Volvo D1-20 and I would need a new saildrive as well!! (Not the case with the Beta 20!!!!)

In the event, because I did all the work on the rebuild myself, the cost was minimal by comparison. The elbow was the most expensive item at around £250 the rest of the parts were pretty insignificant - the riser I made myself.

I used the engine a lot over the last season and was pleased with my efforts. I also fitted hot water, which was why I investigated the cooling system to start with, I wanted to know if it was going to cope. It has and works brilliantly.

Some years ago I fitted a Beta 20 to a previous vessel and know that new engines are more responsive in close quarter handling, more efficient, cleaner and quieter, plus it will add value to a vessel if this expensive upgrade has been undertaken.

I would be interested to know what brought you to your decision to re-power and also how you arrived at your choice of machinery.

Thanks,

Chris

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Re: Repowering

Postby Elad » Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:22 pm

Hey Chris,

I wouldn't anguish you with the whole "saga", I'll try to be concise:

Mine was VP 2002 with a direct cooling- no heat exchanger.
from the moment I purchased the boat it had several problems:
1.Sometimes it took it quite a long time to crank.
2.Is smoked quite excessively, even when it got warmer.
3.it sporadically stalled- it took me quite a long time to find the culprit- it was the fuel feeding pump, I had to install the improves modern model.
4.when it worked- it worked ok in normal sea conditions but once I was against 2 meter waves and 25 knots wind and the gps showed almost 0 knots!

I guess I could have overhauled it but volvo are infamous for expensive spare parts and where I come from (Israel), they are even more expensive than many other places, on top of that I can't do an overhaul project by myself and the cost of labour of such a project can get immense.

Having wrote that, on top on the fact that I wanted to go for some extensive sailing(what I'm trying to do nowadays) I decided to check the alternatives for a new engine....

I took quotes for new yanmar + saildrive and a new volvo+sail drive, in Israel, Cyprus and also a shipyard in Turkey.
None of the quotes could be considered as "inexpensive" and I also read in the internet about repetitive problems with Yanmar's saildrives...

I did read a lot of good feedbacks on Beta marine so I started "investigating", finding a photo in the internet of a Dutch 29' HR that was repowered with a beta 25...
After some more investigation I contacted Beta Marine by email asking for a quote(There is no dealer for Beta Marine in Israel), and after a short correspondence I got a very decent quote for Beta 20+saildrive.

I didn't install it myself, but after seeing how pretty straight forward it was I would definitely solicit any skilled or semi skilled sailor(like myself) to do this project by himself.

Bottom line:

I now have a new beta 20+saildrive(October 13), so far it worked very well(Only 30 Hours), but I hope for many more years of trouble free, smooth operation.

If anyone considers doing such a project I will be happy to share tips and useful information, feel free to contact me.

Fair winds,

Elad

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Re: Repowering

Postby Antti_DD » Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:56 am

Hi guys, it would be interesting to know, what is roughly the cost (or the quote you got) for re-powering? I have seen some ads and prices for new engines, but having one installed on your boat is another thing. On the other hand, if the old engine is still running, you will probably get some compensation for that in exchange. Chris, I guess that the Volvo's pricing – even without the new saildrive – is on the high side?

I once visited an HR29 (which had a berth in the same marina that we kept DD earlier), and her owner had replaced the original engine with new 28 hp Volvo. He had to make some modifications to the engine room, since the 28 hp engine is that much larger. Do you think that switching to a stronger engine would make sense in this boat? In my opinion, especially in stronger headwinds and currents, having more power would definitely do no harm, but not sure if it is worth the extra cost.
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Re: Repowering

Postby Chris » Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:48 am

Hi Antti,

The more power the better! That's what you would think but it's actually a case of diminishing returns. As you know all hulls have a hull speed and no matter how much power you put on you will not go any faster. Yes there is a case in strong head winds for a bit more to punch into it but in all honesty it's an uncomfortable scenario and probably best to just avoid that situation. And let us not forget we are in a sailboat.

The larger engine has a longer block and if the installation on other 29s is like mine, the exhaust will clash with the companion way bulk head for a start. What happens to the saildrive situation I have no idea. Also there's not much room at the front, my belt pulleys and oil filter are virtually touching the engine case insulation. The D1-20 should drop straight in with an adaptor plate to fit the engine bearers which is an optional extra.

The kind of prices I have been quoted for a D1-20 inc saildrive and VAT supply only are around €10,000. Fitting I would guess is going to be in excess of €1000.00.
The Beta 20 was €5.500 (without saildrive) supply only but at least the 120s will fit it. I do know however where there are couple of new D1-20 engines at considerably less than book price. They don't have saildrives and from what I can make out, the 120s flange plate doesn't look like it will fit. I am trying to find out if it's possible to make it fit.

These engines are actually quite 'easy' to fit and when I installed my last one, in the case of Beta Marine, they were very, very helpful. An extra pair of hands and the help of the yard hoist will be needed.

The market price for a VP2002 in good running order is around €1000.00. A dealer offered me that for mine.

As I said I looked into all this when I began discovering there were issues with the cooling on my engine. But hopefully the work I carried out will prolong the 2002's life for longer. If one had to keep spending out for marine engineers to do these overhauls, then as Elad said it might be best to consider replacement.

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Re: Repowering

Postby Elad » Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:25 pm

Hey Guys,

As I mentioned, in Israel there is no dealer of Beta Marine so I contact them via email and negotiated directly with Andrew,their CEO, he, and actually all the staff were, and still are very helpful with every question or doubt that I have.

I contemplated quite a bit rather I should install a Beta 25 and fit it to my 120 Sail drive or should I install a brand new Beta 20 + new Sea prop 60.(there was no room for a new Beta 25 + saildrive)

I did some reading in forums etc' and decided to go with the new Beta 20 and new saildrive after I understood I'll rarely, if at all, have HP shortage with a new BETA 20.
The fear of installing a new engine and leaving the old Saildrive and then, couple of years later, possibly having problems with the saildrive was also a factor.

When you make an order in Beta Marine, they send you a form with all kind of measurements you need to do and they manufacture the fittings to the engine
bedding- awesome!

I didn't even had to drill one hole in order to fit the new engine supports- they fitted exactly to the old volvo threads!

Another issue is that some engines require some modification of the companionway, I thought some modification would be required also with the installation of the Beta 20+ new Sail drive but with the help of the good Providence I only needed to grind a little bit the back of the companionway.

I have only 30 hours on my engine, so I might not be the best testimonial, but, I did sail the yacht from Israel to Cyprus and the weather was pretty rough- IMHO, the engine gave me plenty of power and I'm, so far, very pleased with the choice I have done.

I attach some photos of my engine, if someone wants more info about the installation process or costs feel free to contact me.

IMG_0374.JPG
Grined companionway
IMG_0374.JPG (160.39 KiB) Viewed 7727 times
IMG_0373.JPG
IMG_0373.JPG (89.87 KiB) Viewed 7727 times
IMG_0372.JPG
IMG_0372.JPG (243.41 KiB) Viewed 7727 times


Also a nice link:

http://www.psychosnail.com/boatspeedcalculator.aspx

Elad

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Re: Repowering

Postby Antti_DD » Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:31 pm

Elad, thanks for the info and photos! Your Beta appears to be more compact sized than our current VP MD2020. I guess that this should give good maintenance space for changing fuel/oil filters etc.

Chris, thanks for your comment and price info. The boat with 28hp engine had indeed modified engine room so that the companionway stairs were extended longer to the saloon to give more space for the longer engine. To my knowledge, also the new 18 hp D1-20 is larger than the original VP2002, so it might reduce the working space in the engine room. Btw. do you think that raw vs. fresh water cooling plays a major role in the lifespan of a diesel engine?
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Re: Repowering

Postby Chris » Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:15 pm

I thought it may well require some significant modifictions to accommodate a 28hp engine. Not sure it is really worth the trouble though.

Fresh water - raw water? Don't know how well qualified I am to answer it but IMHO I wouldn't choose salt water as a coolant. After all 'fresh water' or rather sealed systems with anti-freeze seem to be the method of choice. I believe Bukh still manufacture raw water cooled engines.

Modern, sealed system engines are by no means immune from corrosion however. Sea water still passes through the heat exchanger and in time can corrode the heat exchanger and the exhaust outlets. That's why winterising the engine cooling system by flushing it through with fresh water and filling it with antifreeze is important.

Obviously I am speaking from someone who sails in salt water.

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Re: Repowering

Postby Chris » Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:04 pm

Hi Ingemar,

All the pipes are seated into a push-fit rubber seal. I obtained mine from a UK based company called Keypart. They seem to do pretty much all the parts for VP engines and are competitively priced.

http://www.keypart.com/volvo-penta

Some of the pipes are retained by a half collar, as shown in your picture but some are just a push fit and held in place by the geometry of the installation. The most important thing in each case is to make sure the end of the pipe and the hole in which it is going into is absolutely clean. The old seal may well have perished and when you pull the pipe out, part of the old seal can remain inside the hole. Carefully clean away any residue as you don't want to damage the surface as this is what creates the seal. I used wire wool on the pipes and even though I repainted them I kept paint away from the ends where the seals are located as the paint might have a detrimental effect on the rubber seal. Use liquid soap as a lubricant around the seal to help push it home and not oil.

Some of the pipes will be reluctant to come away because they are held in place by whatever the other end goes into. Unfortunately you may find you have to dismantle more then you would like in order to remove it.

I dismantled the entire cooling system including the heat exchanger, water pump, alternator, starter motor, exhaust bend and exhaust riser. The workshop manual does quote a re-assembly order and it is worth following as if you do it in the wrong sequence you will find some component very reluctant to go back in place. You even begin to believe some of the parts have changed shape or you have got them the wrong way round. The way the pipes are made is a real work of tube bending art.

I had various drips form the old seals which had perished. The one into the exhaust riser and the one into the heat exchanger were particularly bad. This procedure, whilst somewhat time consuming was well worth it.

As far as touch up colour is concerned, I refused to pay the exorbitant price for the Volvo paint and mixed up my own brushing cellulose from a paint supplier on the web. It wasn't an exact match but it was close enough. Spraying indiscriminately I think can look like the engine has just been 'tarted up'. With careful use of a brush and if parts are removed, clean and repainted when they are refitted they look like new parts.

If I think of any other points that may help I will post them.

Please don't hesitate to ask if you have problems. I am more than happy to help if I can.

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Re: Repowering

Postby Willem » Sat May 03, 2014 3:39 pm

Hi Everyone,
I'am suddenly very interested in this subjecy, because yesterday, at 4:16 PM my MD7B (1983) has been declared 'dead'.

Since this motor was refitted, 9 years ago, we did all possible to keep it in shape. And with succes: it has never let us down.
(it stopped two times: one time I had kicked the main switch off without noticing and the other time we were out of fuell because of a miscalculation... can't blame the motor for that!).

Last week the motor didn't start as well as it used to. Still 'normal', but a little bit slower. We used the motor daily during the week, it ran perfectly - maybe some more smoke...
Yesterday, back in our home harbour, a mechanic had a look at the motor and this became a worst case scenario. He noticed an emulsion (oil + water); so there was water in the motor. A lot of water in one of the cilinders! There was a small track in the head gasked which marked a connection between the cooling water and the cilinder, due to a hairline in the cilinder head.

Everything can be fixed, but we're not going to try. This is the moment to install a new one.

I think that maybe it is not a good idea to replace only the engine and not the saildrive, altough this is a less expensive option, f.e. with a new Vetus (Mitsubishi) or a refitted Volvo. But maybe someone has a positive experience with this?
At the moment I have asked 3 offers for a new combination of engine and saildrive: (Vetus)Mitsubishi; Volvo (D1-20/S); Yanmar (3YM20-CE).
The companies seem quite eager; I expect their offers this Monday.

Any good advice is welcome!
I'll keep you informed,
Willem.

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Re: Repowering

Postby Antti_DD » Sun May 04, 2014 8:57 am

Willem, sorry to hear about your engine troubles. The good news is that this happened during the spring and not during the high summer season. Unfortunately, I don't have experience on repowering, since the DD's engine was replaced by one of her p/o's, who decided to replace the old VP2002 with a new VP. The saildrive is original and some seawater found its way past the seals a couple of years ago, and this had caused some corrosion in the saildrive shaft. However, this was fairly easy and inexpensive to fix at the local machinery. If you choose to use the old saildrive, it might be a good idea to have it checked and maintained while it is off the boat.
Last edited by Antti_DD on Sun May 04, 2014 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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